STUMP & mensa.talk.misc

http://www.mensa.org/newsgroups/admin.html.

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Although my mensa.talk.misc posts appear on my local server (almost immediately, which also makes me suspicious), they don't appear to be getting out into the world. As a check I tried Deja but Deja doesn't have them, although it has the posts to which I was replying. Of course, my recent posts may have been of too little interest to prompt replies. But I'd feel better if I had some verification that my posts were actually going out. Please, somebody, reply.

- Thanks - Bill

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Got it. Funny, I'm having the same problem.

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Je merkredo, 03 May 2000 23:25:18 GMT, vi skribis:

Hmmm. I got your reply... thanks! Wonder if anybody else'll jump in, maybe we can figure out what's going on. Maybe I'll just try to contact a moderator directly if I can figure out who they are... and which I could trust! This Mensa game is pretty strange sometimes.

- Bill

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Je Wed, 03 May 2000 23:25:18 GMT, en mensa.talk.misc vi skribis:

Hey, it looks like this is going to work: instead of posting to the newsgroup, mail your posts to [kut!], which claims to be "the robomoderation program for newsgroup mensa.talk.misc".

- Bill

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Interesting! But does the roboprogram keep the replies in a threaded format?

I actually got so frustrated with the posting problem that I unsubscribed.

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There was recently a thread called "To the moderator", a discussion of posts that just disappear. Not quite like our situation, these were people who have posted before successfully, but whose posts sometimes don't get through. What I gathered from this thread is that when you post to mensa.talk.misc, the news server that you use is supposed to forward the post to the roboprogram address *instead of* blasting it out to mensa.talk.misc (thus requiring some special configuration at your ISP, I suppose). Then the roboprogram either sends it out to mensa.talk.misc from Mensa's server (if you're a known "good" poster) or forwards it to a moderator who bounces it back to you if it's not approved, or sends it out to mensa.talk.misc from Mensa's server if it is.

So it sounds like there's two solutions...

1) Your ISP has to configure its server to do this

...or...

2) You can mail it yourself to the roboprogram address.

So, to close this long answer to your question... I'm guessing that it will thread the same way, it's just going out through a different server.

What was happening to us, I think, is that our posts were just getting out to a little "local" part of USENET, probably being passed on until they bumped into a server that knew it wasn't supposed to be forwarding these unapproved messages in a moderated newsgroup. If you can look at the header details in the messages you've received, you'll see some fields that tell the server how to handle these messages, including a field that points to the roboprogram address!

But I guess we shall see, eh?

- Bill

At last I was able to post to the newsgroup! I had only tried a few times before, over the course of a few months, in response to an error that I had noticed in the newsgroup FAQ. Since it was related to a touchy subject (censorship), I figured that the lack of response just meant that I was being ignored. But now I had the answer and could finally post successfully! As usual in the Mensa world, debate followed. I begin with some earlier messages of interest. These are just the most relevant portions of the most relevant messages, responses to and from me and others. Many messages have been snipped entirely, so don't expect any message to refer directly to the one before it...

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STUMP seems to be working well enough for me. Since I started e-mailing my replies directly to the moderator instead of relying upon my ISP's news server to do it (since it lacks that capability) or Deja (which can be erratic), I haven't had any posting failures at all and I get nearly instant response.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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It is broke. Just beause you are not having problems doesn't mean all is well.

Which moderator would that be? And what is his/her email address?

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I appreciate the distinction. However I would like to note that while some have problems, not all do.

The address can be found in the header of each mensa.talk.misc message. If your newsreader conceals all that stuff, open it up and study it...

[snip]

A handy workaround to dealing with recalcitrant news servers that aren't set up properly.

Aha! That was the clue I needed!

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Aha! Now I know the trick and can post to MTM. From the "To the moderator" thread I learned about STUMP, the problems with STUMP, the problems with servers that don't play nice, and, most importantly in my case... how to post to the newsgroup by mailing to [the moderation program].

My posts had been appearing on my local server, so I didn't even know that there was a problem. Except that nobody (save one person who appears to be sharing my little piece of the Net) ever replied. Of course, my posts may have been of too little interest to prompt replies. As a check I tried Deja, but Deja didn't have my posts, although it had the posts to which I was replying. And some had said that there was a problem with Deja anyway. So I wasn't really sure until recently about just what was going on.

Anyway... shouldn't this problem/solution be mentioned on the newsgroup webpage?

- Bill

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On 19 May 2000 07:33:18 -0500, William W Patterson wrote:

Then your news server is not configured properly and you need to notify your ISP that the moderation directions are at:

http://www.mensa.org/newsgroups/admin.html

The International mensa web site does have the link admin instructions on the newsgroup page:

http://www.mensa.org/newsgroups

as well as who to contact if there is a problem.

e-mailing directly to STUMP doesn't resolve the newserver problem. That needs to be resolved.

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In some cases it's the only solution possible. The news provider my ISP uses isn't properly configured to e-mail to STUMP. When I e-mailed them about it the news provider (not my ISP mind you) sent me a rather snotty reply that they had no intention of e-mailing to the Mensa moderator, that they did their own moderating and didn't need any other moderator. It's obvious they're simply not going to make any changes even if they could figure out how. So until/unless I change ISPs or the ISP changes news providers mailing to STUMP is the answer.

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Huh? What are you talking about? Who is the ISP? The ISP doesn't e-mail the moderator at all. The ISP directs the messages to a clearing house for moderation.

Did you point them to the webpage:

http://www.mensa.org/newsgroups/admin.html

for configuration instructions??

If they are going to configure the groups properly, there is no sense carrying them at all, since for all purposes, they are using our newsgroup as a local group.

Yes, that's exactly what she said... There's no sense in doing a job if you're going to do it right. She is notorious for making such errors. In this case it was undoubtedly sloppiness, but I believe that she often makes spelling and grammatical errors intentionally... carefully... in order to say things that she wants to say, with the option of later denial if the response is unfavorable. I've read her in action before, and suffered the experience myself once or twice.

No ISP mails anything to STUMP on the chicago machine (although they could)!

"mensa.* is also listed in the master moderators.uu.net/uunet.uu.net database, so if you are using one of them as your moderator address that should work fine as well. "

They just configure this moderated group like any other -- sending the messages to the moderators master file. There they are forwarded to our moderation system.

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Yes, several times. Their response suggested they weren't the least bit interested. At first I thought that the challenge of setting it up properly might be beyond their capability but from what they told me it appears they prefer that their moderated news groups not work.

I finally got tired of fighting with them and just adopted the practice of e-mailing responses directly to [the moderator]. I haven't tried posting to any other moderated usenet groups so I don't know if they're set up properly either.

My ISP is caught in the middle. They don't operate a news server but contract with a third-party to provide news service, setting up their DNS to direct my reader to their news provider's server.So that's the way it is unless I change ISPs or my ISP changes news providers.

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<snip>

So who runs this news service? What is the name of the newserver to which you connect? If they aren't going to configure properly, they don't need to carry our group. That will drive some people away from Mensa who don't understand it is a newserver problem.

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Thanks, I'll look into that.

But I still think that a little note about this on the newsgroup page would be a good thing. Once one knows how this is supposed to work, the solution is obvious... but beforehand, not obvious at all. I wasn't familiar with this mechanism, and the probability is low that I would check the admin info concerning the serving of a newsgroup which I was already receiving. As for contacting somebody for help... why not save us *and* them some time and trouble, with that little note?

I've been in email contact with a person who did somehow receive one of my misrouted posts, a person who had simply given up on mensa.talk.misc soon after. I wonder how many others give up, or go away thinking that Mensans can't even run a news server... even though it's not Mensa's fault at all.

- Bill

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STUMP isn't broke. It is working the way it is intended to work. The decision to use STUMP was made long ago -- and that is that until someome comes up with a better free program.

So are you volunteering to fix it? Are you a skilled PERL programmer? Are you willing to volunteer your time? In the Full header is the address where STUMP is located -- so have at it please.

Well, that seems like a good place to stop. This is the sort of thread that can go on for a long time, but the rest will probably be just more of the same. But I can't resist commenting on that last bit...

I am not saying that STUMP is broke because I have no reason to believe that it is, and I know that my problem was caused by improper configuration of my news server and had nothing to do with Mensa... though some others have claimed that posts are occasionally lost even when things are configured properly, and have experienced other problems. However, I was amused by this typical response of Mensa "volunteers"... When criticized, most of them will 1) not consider, even for a moment, that they might be wrong and 2) challenge the critic to take over and do a better job... which is, after all, completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not they themselves are right.

And that, too, seems to be a common thread in discussions with the Mensa powers-that-be. They seem to have a tough time staying on topic. "Pi is integral." "No, pi is not integral." "Hey, this is a tough job, we never get any respect, everbody's always complaining, if you think you can do a better job then why don't you just shut up and do it?"

Uh... pi isn't integral.

Okay, one more post of interest...

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More than one person has had problems. If these are calmly reported, collected & analyzed, it is possible we can find out what the problems were. Some posters have ISP problems with misconfigured news groups - if one wishes to check this, go to www.deja.com and look to see if they've got your posts. If they don't, it's likely that your ISP is misconfigured. As someone remarked, it's a peculiar symptom though - you just feel ignored, since you can see your posts as can all others using the same ISP (or similarly misconfigured ISPs).

[snip]

As I said in another posts, lost posts are a common problem with news - it's a complex network, and sometimes posts disappear - moderated or unmoderated. It's just that in unmoderated groups, you won't know your posts have disappeared, since you're able to see them.